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Vincenzo Villamena: [00:00:00] I think it is an invaluable experience to live outside of your own country for, you know, let's call it two years because I feel two years is you really understand what it's like. You know, for me personally, being an expat changed my life. Um, you know, not only because obviously I found, you know, my calling in life, but also because one, you know, of course, you meet clients because there are a lot of expats to, you know, just the pure cost savings of living outside the United States.
Blake Oliver: [00:00:30] If you'd like to earn CPE credit for listening to this episode, visit earmark Cpcomm, download the app, take a short quiz, and get your CPE certificate. Continuing education has never been so easy. And now on to the episode. Hello everyone, and welcome back to the show. I'm Blake Oliver, joined today by Vincenzo Villamena, the founder and CEO of Online Taxman, a firm specializing in US expat taxes and international business structuring. He has extensive experience in tax prep, accounting and financial advisory services for both individuals and businesses. Vincenzo, welcome to the show.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:01:13] Thank you. Blake, thank you for having me.
Blake Oliver: [00:01:15] Yeah. Great to have you on. Uh, where are you located?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:01:18] So I live in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, and I've been sort of in Latin America or South America, really for for over ten years, living here, running a business and just really enjoying the quality of life down here.
Blake Oliver: [00:01:31] That's awesome. So you specialize in expat taxation? Um, what is expat tax? What does that mean?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:01:38] You know, so the thing is, as a US citizen or a green card holder is that you, you know, have to file US taxes no matter where you live. And so for us, that means that obviously all the Americans living abroad now, all with all the digital nomads, you know, so on and so forth, people that are quote unquote, accidental Americans, right? That maybe they were born in the United States when their parents were studying and they were, you know, went back to their home country. You know, all these people have to file US taxes, you know, so our firm focuses on, you know, filing for those individuals as well as foreign people that want to invest in the United States. Um, you know, people that open up LLCs and, and companies in the United States because it's actually tax free for non Americans. Um, and really, everything on the sun when it comes to sort of US taxes touching, you know, some sort of international tax situation, I should say really an international tax situation that maybe touches the United States in some manner. And we help, you know, those people with the compliance. And then with also, again, like structuring and optimization, because I really feel as a CPA, you know, of course compliance is important. You want to make sure you're compliant. But, you know, if there's ability, um, and opportunities to optimize, you should. And so we really try to focus on that side of the planning and so forth too.
Blake Oliver: [00:03:03] So tell me about your practice. Like is it just you do you have a team. How does it work. Yeah.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:03:08] So my story started about um, 12 years ago. I was in, uh, New York. I was working actually at PricewaterhouseCoopers. Then I worked at a private equity fund. I thought that private equity, you know, finance was really where my dream job was going to be and, you know, making money and blah, blah, blah. And, um, I got my private equity job after PwC and and I hated it. And so I was, you know, within like two years, I was like this, this sucks. And, uh, you know, the fund couldn't raise money and like, there was just all this sort of stuff. This is also around like 2010. So the economy wasn't great. So I went down to Buenos Aires, Argentina, and I went there on this sort of eat, pray, love moment, like I had a friend living there and I visited there, you know, I went to Brazil for carnival, I went to Argentina, and then I was like, oh man, I need to go. I need, I just want to leave. I just want to leave New York. So I went down to Buenos Aires. I had a buddy living there and, um, I was only going to be a few a few months. I had this other dream of going back to New York and opening up one of these, like Liberty Tax, H&R block sort of establishments.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:04:17] But I was like, oh, let me just go learn Spanish and whatnot. So there I am in Buenos Aires, learning Spanish, you know, meeting people, you know, doing tango, like doing all this stuff. And I was like, you know. I don't want to go back to New York, you know what I mean? Am I going to go back to New York and open up some office in Queens or whatever? It's like, no way. So. I ended up just staying right. And then when I was down there and I had, you know, obviously, as I mentioned, I had an accounting background, I sort of knew a little bit about tax. And so I'm down there and, you know, two things happened. One was, you know, people were asking me questions like Americans living down there were asking me questions about taxes and stuff. And then there were a lot of Argentinos and anyone that's familiar with Argentina, you know, they've sort of been in a, you know, financial crisis for, I mean, I wouldn't call it like the last ten years they've been in financial crisis for 20, 30 years. I mean, every other like five, ten years is a real major crisis. Inflation.
Blake Oliver: [00:05:16] Right. It's like a huge problem.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:05:17] Inflation's absurd. Right? I mean now it's like 100% a year now. Yeah. Um, and so and even back then again, this is 12 years ago it was the same issue. And so all these Argentinos needed to open up bank accounts in the United States. And so, you know, one way to do that, and we still do this for a lot of people that are not Americans, is you can open up an LLC, and then you could open up a US dollar based bank account. And so all these Argentinos were asking, oh, you know, blah, blah, blah, I need to open up a bank account dollars. So basically. I had this eureka moment where I'm like, well, here's two, you know, people that have needs. And so let me open up a company that obviously serves these needs. And so there I was, you know, jobless, you know, getting broke, learning to use my savings live in Argentina, which, you know, was cheap. So I did have a nice runway, which is beautiful. But the point is, is that, um, I built a website online, taxman. And then for the for the first few years, it was just me at a computer.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:06:21] And, you know, I still remember this. You know, I'd have people, like, on my couch and I'd call and, you know, at that point, like, I wanted to maintain a little of a facade, so I'd be like, oh, yeah, I'm in New York. It's great outside, you know? And there I am in Argentina. And it's like, yeah. And um, and basically I just threw blood, blood, sweat and tears. I, you know, built this company online. Taxman. Today we have over 40 people around the world. And, you know, as I said, we do sort of that same, you know, services. We've expanded it more than that. But you know, that's sort of where I started from, you know, my couch to, to where we are today. And, you know, I have a wonderful business partner that came down a few years later, uh, a good friend from, from, from, you know, from college, from University of Michigan and, um, yeah. And here I am. So now I've sort of transitioned from Argentina, went to Colombia for a few years, and now I'm in Brazil.
Blake Oliver: [00:07:16] So it started with you in Argentina helping Argentina's. Did I say that right? Is that what they called themselves? Is that what we called them?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:07:25] The Argentines? Argentinos. Argentina Argentinos, let's say Argentinos.
Blake Oliver: [00:07:29] Argentinos. Um, yeah. They, they needed to open up a US dollar bank accounts to deal with the crazy inflation and that, that that was how you got into the, the, the US taxation.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:07:42] And the, you know, and the and the Americans that were down there that also didn't really you know, they obviously they didn't have a local accountant to go to to do their US taxes. Right. So you had a lot of Americans that were down there and sort of clueless or, you know, a lot of them actually were just not filing their US taxes. They didn't know about the compliance side. Um, this is also when, uh, um, you know, Obama actually passed a bill. It was part of part of like Obamacare, etc., called Fatca, which is where, you know, people had to report their foreign bank accounts. And so there was a little bit also of like, uh, you know, a coming of, of, of, of compliance for Americans abroad that had foreign bank accounts. So everything sort of brewed at the same time, you know, with me starting the website and doing Google AdWords and yeah, you know, pushing people to the website. So then it it went from just sort of me being like the local US accountant guy to. Going online, doing Google AdWords, etc. and really, you know, getting clients from around the world. And I'll always remember when I like randomly build a website and I, you know, hired this guy with like, you know, I really didn't have that much money, but I was like, okay, let's throw a couple hundred bucks into Google AdWords. And, you know, all of a sudden I get the I always remember because a random guy in Spain, you know, who I had a call with and I, you know, closed the consultation. He became a client and I was that was like a eureka moment for me. I was like, oh my God, this random guy found me on the internet and is now going to be a client of mine. And, uh, yeah. And that's sort of what we've, we've done. So, you know, people find us online now and uh, and we give consultations and, you know, they become clients, etc. and, and that's how our business works for the most part.
Blake Oliver: [00:09:29] So started with Argentina. You said you had 40 people working around the world. Um, yeah. I take it you're a remote company or do you have an office in Brazil now, or how does it work?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:09:40] No. Fully remote. We've always been remote. Um, you know, which has been been. It's been interesting. You know what I mean? I think it's been, uh, it's been a challenge. But you know what? It's been such a gift. Not only for, like, the freedom and flexibility of me, but really for everyone that works with us. Right? You know, I've had people that, you know, have never left their home country and now are sort of, you know, traveling around either digital nomad or at least, you know, going and saying, hey, I'm going to go work here for, you know, from a couple of weeks from Europe. I've never been to Europe, um, you know, things like that. And so it's really afforded the people that we work with, our employees also having that, that, that freedom and that lifestyle. And that's actually been, you know, you could ask me about, you know, what's rewarding and all this sort of thing. There's two things that have been super duper rewarding for me. One is just helping people optimize, save money, deal with the stress of their taxes because, you know, they come and they don't know what they're doing. A lot of people are stressed out, you know, anxious. So helping people like that. Yeah. And then number two, allowing my employees to, to to achieve what they want to achieve and work where they want to work and just, you know, give them that lifestyle.
Blake Oliver: [00:10:52] That's my dream. I want to eventually just travel around the world, live in different places. And I, I could do my job from anywhere. The only thing keeping me here right now is I have a kid in school. So, yeah, you know, I'm tied down. I don't want to take him international for a while, but, uh, you know, maybe in ten years just cut loose and travel around, and then I'll have some international tax issues, I'm sure.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:11:18] Exactly.
Blake Oliver: [00:11:19] It gets a little complicated.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:11:21] Yeah, it does, it does. Well, you know, now there's world schooling. I have clients that they like. I mean, it's it's a concept. I don't have kids so I can't fully comment on it. But it's like, okay, you want to learn about the Holocaust? Let's go to Germany. We'll tour around a bit and whatnot. You know, it's it's I mean, in the last ten years, it's just the revolution of and this is really even pre-COVID too, right? Covid obviously just expedited everything. But, you know, the amount of people that are now, you know, again, families not, you know, single people, older retirees that have been able to travel and and live is it's it's amazing.
Blake Oliver: [00:11:59] I might have a referral for you. Yeah. One of my, one of my friends from high school, she's a pianist living in London or outside of London. She's a US citizen. Yeah. And like, she's been looking for somebody who does expat taxes, but it's not. It's not common. Like it's really hard to find somebody. Is that is what you're finding that like you are a in strong demand.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:12:21] It's a.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:12:21] Very. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Um, because it's true. There's not a lot of people, um, you know, especially like locally, uh, you know, really locally, but even even online, you know, there's only a few firms that, that really do this stuff. And, um, so, yeah, we've, we've really been able to niche out and, and obviously achieve a lot of success with the.
Blake Oliver: [00:12:41] So where are your clients like are are they primarily in South America? Are they all over the world like because I imagine yeah, like like understanding the expat tax issues could be complex if you're dealing with a lot of different countries or is it not that bad?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:12:56] Well, you know, again, we we only focus on the US side. So what ends up happening is over the years we've we've we've found a lot of clients that we like that we work with. And each country, you know, we don't have any economic relationship, but it's more of like a trusting relationship. So okay, you know, just like, um, and a little bit of like a cross referral again, not not economic. More of like, okay, I know, you know, you live in, in Holland, um, you know, here are two Dutch accountants that we've worked with before, you know, etc.. And so, um, we they handle.
Blake Oliver: [00:13:27] The local tax, they handle.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:13:29] The local stuff. Okay. You know, we we could spot a lot of the issues, especially on the major stuff because, you know, to your point, we have a lot of clients in the big expat hubs. So the UK, Canada, Australia, um, you know, Dubai, Singapore, Hong Kong, um, and then and then we do we have a very large presence in South America, predominantly because, you know, one, I've lived in three countries here. Uh, and two, we also have, uh, you know, employees in Argentina and whatnot. So, yeah, we do have a pretty, you know, large presence in South America. I think it's like relatively underserved compared to, uh, some of the other markets. So but they're around the world, um, the clients and yeah, like I said, for some of the major hubs, like, you know, the UK or Australia, um, you know, Singapore, we also sort of we have a grip on the issues. Right. Like we know, okay, you know, the UK has a different tax year. So you have to sort of make sure that that's aligned. Um, you know, the fact that like Brazil dividends are tax free. So how do you, you know, how do you work with that to optimize. So there are like some sort of local issues that we, we know enough about. We will never do a local tax return. But you know, you're able to issue spot and sort of know how how it works, etc..
Blake Oliver: [00:14:47] So what are the biggest, uh, issues that expats face, like in terms of US taxes and staying compliant? I know that a lot of them, a lot of them don't know that they still have to file taxes right? In the US on their global income and all that. Like we have a really different system than most countries. Um, yeah.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:15:06] Very different, you know.
Blake Oliver: [00:15:07] Yeah, you could probably do like a whole series of interviews on this, but like, like what are the what are the top ones like give me.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:15:15] The let's.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:15:16] Let's, let's talk about the good and the bad.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:15:18] Okay.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:15:19] The good is.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:15:21] As.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:15:21] An American citizen, if you if you live outside the United States, there's two ways to qualify. One is by being physically present outside the United States. So you could only be in the US for 35 days in a 365 day period. Um, or you're a bona fide resident. So you get a residency, let's say, in Mexico, and you get a bank account and you're there the whole year, like, you know, maybe you go back to the United States only 60 days or 90. It's a little bit not less of a bright line, but basically, if you reside outside the United States, then you get your first $120,000 of salaried income or independent contracting income earned income like that, you're actually earning not passive income dividends. And and, you know, rental real estate, whatever, you know, that that's an account. But basically, if $120,000 of your earned income W-2 whatever tax free, right? So you, you could save, you know, roughly and then also free from state income tax, potentially depending on the state, etc., and you have to give up your residency. And there's places like California that are very, uh, very aggressive about that whole thing. Um, but yeah, you get, you know, again, you're saving 20, 30 plus thousand dollars by living outside the United States and qualifying what's known as the foreign earned income exclusion. Right. So gotcha. That is a big advantage. And the state tax like I mentioned.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:16:46] So but that.
Blake Oliver: [00:16:47] Income has to come from where like it has to be derived from where I'm outside the United States.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:16:53] Right. It has to.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:16:54] Be, you know, a common misconception, right, is that, oh, well, but I'm still working for a US company right now. You might be working for a US company, but it's foreign earned income exclusion. And so when you're earning income by being physically outside the United, you know, you're physically working obviously your desk like I am in Brazil right now. Yeah, I'm earning my income outside the United States. So I qualify for that. If you if you happen to be in the US for a month working, then actually you that that income that you're working in the United States is not qualified. And so you have to do a little bit of a pro rata sort of calculation, um, on that. But you know, for, for the, for the days that you are physically working outside the United States, um, that earned income is tax free. And again, whether you're working for a US company, you have your own, you know, US company's Corp LLC or you work for a foreign company. Um, it's tax free. If you're working for a foreign company, then you might not even have to pay Social Security tax in the US. Um, I mean, there's like, we set up offshore structures for people that are, you know, international entrepreneurs, right? If they don't have any. Us employs US offices, US warehouses. Um, potentially they could also, uh, achieve, you know, an even lower tax rate on the corporate side of 10.5%. Right. I mean, this is so.
Blake Oliver: [00:18:13] This this is like the individual, uh, version of what corporations do. Yeah. Where they they set up the offshore.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:18:21] Yes. Yeah.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:18:22] And, you know, it's not for everyone. It's not, you know, but you know, the apple's and Google's of the world are doing this. And you know for certain international entrepreneurs etc. again, they're living abroad. They don't you know, you can't have any effectively connected income in the United States. You know, you're able to achieve these, uh, you know, these strategies, right? I mean, these are sort of honestly, the loopholes that, you know, Apple is it's a C Corp that owns a foreign company. You have Apple that owns a company in Ireland, you know, that has people in Ireland, etc.. I mean, they're they're achieving that same, you know, tax rate on, on, on the income earned by those foreign corporations that they have.
Blake Oliver: [00:19:01] So my take my takeaway here is there's a lot of detail and complexity, of course, as there always is. But the immediate savings is like tens of thousands of dollars. Correct. Because of that exclusion just from doing it the right way. And then the the next level is you say create. Do you have like, uh, your clients set up a corporation abroad and then, you know, like, yeah, I mean, we.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:19:26] Do the.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:19:26] Structures. Um, yeah, exactly. We do the structures for them, you know, could be, you know, several jurisdictions, you know, we like the British Virgin Islands. I mean, it used to be Hong Kong. You know, Hong Kong is a little different now, but, you know, there's some.
Blake Oliver: [00:19:40] Can we use me as an example? Can let's just pretend it's ten years in the future and let's say the laws are still the same, right? Okay. So so I'm ready to go live my international lifestyle. Right? I've got, uh, maybe a yacht somewhere, you know, I can take it around the world. Let's just let's just assume things have gone really well for me, right? Yeah. Um, so, so so, like, what do I do?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:20:02] We don't.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:20:03] Want you to live on the yacht, actually, because then that'll that'll complicate things, because then you might be in international waters and but let's say they, let's say have you have a villa in Italy.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:20:12] Right beside.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:20:14] Your villa.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:20:15] In Italy.
Blake Oliver: [00:20:15] I love Puglia, Italy. So let's say it's in the heel.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:20:19] Okay. The heel is great actually.
Blake Oliver: [00:20:20] Okay. So I've decided I'm gonna I'm gonna invest in a villa in Italy, and I've been watching YouTube videos that suggest I could probably get a pretty decent place for, like, you know, not that much.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:20:30] So let's go. Yeah, well, the good ones are like 10,000, $20,000. But you know who's counting? But. Yeah.
Blake Oliver: [00:20:35] Yeah, exactly. I buy a town in Italy that's like abandoned. Exactly. And, uh, I'm ready to. I'm ready to have some fun. Okay, what do I what's what's what's what do I do?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:20:45] Yeah. So, I mean, um, you know, listen, you know, high level. Well, let's also not, you know, we won't get into, like, what, the local Italian tax, you know. No, no. Might might do for this because that might, you know, that's that's getting ahead of ourselves and I know enough about it. And yeah, I mean that's not that's not a fun talk, but the fun talk is basically, you know, again, if you qualify for the foreign earned income exclusion, right. And you're obviously a bona fide resident of Italy, wherever it is, you know, you could pay yourself 120 grand from this foreign company and that would be subject to the foreign earned income exclusion, which means that.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:21:23] Well, let me let.
Blake Oliver: [00:21:23] Me stop you there for a second. You said foreign company am I am I setting up like my company earmark? Am I setting up a foreign subsidiary? Is this a totally like.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:21:33] What is this? It would be like a.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:21:35] U.s.c. Corp that owns a foreign company, let's call it in the British Virgin Islands, for example. And you know, the operating company, everything's going through the British Virgin Islands. The foreign company, the the C Corp is more of a holding company. Got it. The foreign companies in the British Virgin Islands and, um, you know, and that's where you have, you have a bunch of employees around the world. You've got, you know, your editors, you know, you have a few people, you know, a bunch of people working for you out of this BVI company, and you get paid, you pay yourself $120,000, which is tax free, subject to the foreign earned income exclusion and also not subject to Social Security tax. And, and that's, you know, so that's sort of your, you know, your tax free income to live and so forth. Uh, and remind me a go ahead.
Blake Oliver: [00:22:25] How long do I have to live in Italy every year to, to do that?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:22:29] Uh, you.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:22:30] Have to be outside the US for, you know, pretty much the whole year. I mean, you could go back for, let's call it, like a couple months out of the year, okay. To really be outside, you know, it's that's a big part of this. And, um, and then let's say, you know, again, whatever profits left after you pay yourself the 120, even if you have a spouse who's also working, you know, for the company, you know, pay them as well. Um.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:22:55] You know, that's another.
Blake Oliver: [00:22:56] 120.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:22:57] Potentially another hundred.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:22:58] And 20. It's 240. Exactly. And then anything left over under this scenario will be subject to a 10.5% tax rate. And so one might ask, well, where do you get 10.5%? 10.5% is half of the 21% corporate tax rate. So you get a little bit of like a 50% discount on the corporate tax rate by setting.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:23:20] Is that to.
Blake Oliver: [00:23:21] Make up for the tax I got to pay in Italy or something? Is that the rationale for that?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:23:25] No, that's the the rationale is, you know, during the Trump tax plan, somebody lobbied for this 10.5% tax rate. The opposite. Googles of the world said, whoa, if you're gonna if you're gonna if you're gonna change it, come on, we need you know, we're not gonna pay the full tax rate. And so somebody lobbied for 10.5%. It's called a section 250 deduction.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:23:50] Yeah.
Blake Oliver: [00:23:51] Wow. Okay, so that actually doesn't sound too complicated. We're just talking about a subsidiary and the British Virgin Islands. Yeah. And I just gotta, like, pay myself.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:23:58] Out of that.
Blake Oliver: [00:23:59] Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. So then. So then.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:24:03] Good, because I, you know, I told you I had to tell you the good, but I also have to. I have to tell you the bad, too.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:24:10] Okay.
Blake Oliver: [00:24:10] So now tell me. Tell me the bad.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:24:12] Do you want the bad part?
Blake Oliver: [00:24:13] Well, is there more good or is there more good, or are we.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:24:17] Are we pretty much good? I mean, that's that's a lot of good.
Blake Oliver: [00:24:20] Um, tell me about more good before the bad.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:24:25] Um.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:24:27] Okay. One more good.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:24:28] What is.
Blake Oliver: [00:24:29] What if I'm making more than a quarter million dollars, you know?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:24:31] Right.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:24:32] Yeah, yeah. There's. Okay. Let's go. More. Good. So, you know, there is a level of, you know, deferral if you if you want to keep the money in the company. Right. If you if you're going to continue to use the money for, um, you know, reinvesting in the business, or maybe you're going to acquire other podcasts or, or whatnot, you know, you, you're allowed to keep the money in the company. And so there is a level of, of, of, you know, called deferral, right. Because you get the 10%. But let's say you want to take more money out of the company. How the C Corp, um, you know, you put the money up to the C Corp and then you could take more money out, but then that would be a dividend. Right? And it's a qualified dividend. Um, when it comes out of the C Corp. So it's taxed anywhere between uh, 15 to 23.8%, but you could choose to leave the money in the C Corp because you're going to reinvest it in things and maybe you're going to, you know, use some investments, etc.. I mean, this is where. This is where this conversation gets a little more sort of complicated, because there are things about, you know, accumulated retained earnings tax. And, you know, you could yeah, maybe you could do some investing in the C Corp, but, you know, you don't want it to be a personal holding company. And you know, that's when it gets sort of you know this conversation could go off a deep end. But I think high level good thing is that.
Blake Oliver: [00:25:49] You get into the planning, right?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:25:51] Yeah. That's where you get.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:25:53] You got.
Blake Oliver: [00:25:53] To know what my plans are. We got to have a long conversation about that. You can't just answer this question with just.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:25:58] Like exactly.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:25:59] Correct. But I think the good good on this one is that you can achieve a level of tax deferral. You know, you don't have to take all, you know, you pay the 10%. You don't have to take everything as a dividend and pay an additional, you know, again, 15 to 23.8%. You could you could plan, right. You could plan to take it out. The dividends out over time based on the needs of your business that you see in the future.
Blake Oliver: [00:26:23] And this is what Apple does, right? They they leave the money offshore. They don't repatriate it. And they don't pay tax until they repatriate it. Okay.
Vincenzo Villamena: Right.
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Blake Oliver: Okay. So we talked about the good I love this. This is great. Actually, Vincenzo I'm going to be calling you up I think. Yeah.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:26:41] Listen, I mean this is what I love to do.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:26:43] This is really what I love to do when it comes to helping my clients and people, etc.. Really?
Blake Oliver: [00:26:49] Well, what I love about it is that, like the way you've described it, it's very clear what the benefit is to me as a client. Like the savings is there and now I'm hooked. And I want to know. I want to know, okay, now what do we have to do? What's the what's the work that we have to do? It's not necessarily bad. Right. But what is the work that we have to do now to get this benefit?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:27:10] Yeah. I mean, and you know, that's where. Yeah. I mean, I say bad, but it's not bad. It's just that, you know, you have to report this structure, right? I mean, I would never work with anybody that does not fully understand the compliance side, right? Which is that, you know, every year, um, this, this, you know, there's something called a 54, 71 form, right, in which the, um, foreign entity needs to be reported to the IRS, um, along with the C Corp, which owns it, which is 1120 form. Of course, you know, if there are any bank accounts, either personal bank accounts or foreign bank accounts, um, owned by the company or whatever. Um, you know, they need to be reported on the fbar for foreign bank account reporting. Um, and so, um, you know, I think the whole, you know, high level. Right? All the benefits that we talked about being an expat are great. Just people know that, you know, even though you're an expat and you're qualified for foreign earned income exclusion, you need to file to show that you qualify and you need to, you know, if you have investments abroad or what have you, you need to report all that stuff. And so that's sort of the bad, which isn't so bad, but it sort of just, um, you know, it's especially if you work with somebody like us, like, we'll just, you know, handle it. But, you know, you just need to know that, hey, you know, you you need to make sure that you're reporting everything correctly.
Blake Oliver: [00:28:37] So do you set up the foreign corporation? Do you, like, handle all this stuff or do you outsource that? Like, if I'm your client.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:28:45] You know, you.
Blake Oliver: [00:28:46] Handle everything. We had a.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:28:46] Lot of thing. Yeah. Do you do that's bookkeeping too.
Blake Oliver: [00:28:49] Or is it just the tax? We do the.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:28:50] Bookkeeping. Oh yeah. The bookkeeping. That's I mean I, I'm not I don't it's not like mandatory but it's very important that the bookkeeping. Why. Because the 5471 form for reporting a foreign company, you know is a very intricate form. Right. You have to do the income statement, the balance sheet, etc.. Right, people? I mean, you have to understand this form 5471 for somebody in your situation, you're filling out the same form that Apple has to fill out, okay. Which means it's a very complex and intricate form about all the foreign transactions and intercompany stuff. I mean, it's it's not, you know, it's not a breeze. Um, and so it's just important that, you know, you have good books to be able to fill out the form correctly. And, um, yeah. And so that's, but that's really part of our value add, which is, hey, we will set this up for you. We will clearly show and we do this analysis for everybody before we end up setting out for them. But we will clearly show how much tax savings you know, you can have. And then we will do this setup from soup to nuts, explain it to you, write a memo, etc.. And then every year we will work together to to make sure that you're in compliance so that if there's an audit, you know, you're clean, you're showing that you're doing everything correctly. And we leave no stone unturned when it comes to that.
Blake Oliver: [00:30:12] How do you charge for this? Do you bill hourly? Do you charge fixed fees?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:30:18] Fix fixed.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:30:19] Fee.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:30:19] Fixed fee.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:30:20] Fee depending on the complexity.
Blake Oliver: [00:30:22] And how often?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:30:24] Um, well, no, I mean, it's it's sort of a, you know, for example, doing the setup right is generally like between, you know, 5 to $15,000 and then the annual compliance. I mean, you have to pay the, uh, you know, you have to pay also like the BVI and the C-corp and the registered agents, etc., then obviously us doing the thing. I mean, you know, it's it's probably like, um. $5,000 annually sort of thing.
Blake Oliver: [00:30:52] Got it.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:30:53] So yeah.
Blake Oliver: [00:30:54] And then there's the tax filings.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:30:57] Correct.
Blake Oliver: [00:30:57] Is that is that do you include that in your annual fees or do you. Yeah.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:31:01] That's all included in that. Yeah.
Blake Oliver: [00:31:03] That's great. Yeah I mean I like that because it's very clear like, you know, I'm asking you like as a prospective client someday, hey, what is this going to cost me? And now I have a rough idea and I can think, yeah, okay. So one time setup fee, that's pretty hefty, but then ongoing, right? I'm spending, you know, let's call it 5000 to save 10,000, 20,000 maybe more. Right.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:31:25] So also look.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:31:27] At the you know, the ongoing you know like because I also think about this. You're saving um. You know, Social Security is 15%, right? So by paying yourself for a foreign company, right, you know, you pay yourself 120,000 from an S Corp, you're paying, uh, you know, 15 grand plus the Social Security. So, you know, even on the Social Security taxes alone, you're you're achieving the savings in the first year. Right. And then, yeah, obviously, as you mentioned, like ongoing. I mean, it's just exponential, uh, savings, you know, just kind of compounding over, over, over, uh, over the years, you know, that you have the setup and you're living abroad.
Blake Oliver: [00:32:07] It's very compelling. It's a it's a really it's a it's a really great offering. I'm just thinking about this, like, as opposed to let's say I, you know, my firm, I just sold bookkeeping, right? I sold bookkeeping, and we'll pay your bills. We'll do your payroll. That's just something that has to happen, right? There's no cost savings necessarily from that. Right? It's not like I'm saving you money on your tax bill. Like, this is like very. I like it as a business model.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:32:32] Yeah. Yeah.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:32:33] Significant savings. And, um, you know, listen, I mean, we're kind of simplifying it because everyone's different. But, you know, the people we work with and what we do is, um, yeah, it's very important to get it right. And we, you know, work with people that we, we think this is a good, you know, achievable goal. But, you know, the thing is this is that, you know, other than, let's say, you know, the big four or a lot of international law firms, this is not, you know, that do this stuff for you know, the Apple's and Google's of the world. You know, there's very little people out there that that that do these setups for sort of the the typical entrepreneur that you know, is doing whatever a couple of hundred thousand plus of net profit that that, you know, qualifies for this. And so that's, like I said, one of the most rewarding parts of my job.
Blake Oliver: [00:33:24] Yeah. Even if you just want to go travel around the world for a few years. And as a business owner, it might make, like, might make sense to do something like this. I don't know, I mean.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:33:35] Listen, between that and just the cost savings of living abroad and, you know, the lifestyle arbitrage, I mean, it's, you know, that's why I'm very happy with, uh, with, with living down here and achieving these type of savings.
Blake Oliver: [00:33:50] Your voice is a little raspy. We were talking before we started recording that, like, was it? Carnival is going on.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:33:58] Carnival just happened, you know. Carnival. It's true. Yeah. Everyone. Me, everyone I know, I think has a raspy voice and a cough. Because. Carnival. First off, it's not even you know. How long is Carnival? Well, like, technically Carnival is five days. But really, in Rio de Janeiro, Carnival is a month long celebration. I mean, carnival is a lifestyle, you know, Carnival ended, but actually, this this weekend, there's more carnival stuff going on. I think that this week it might be the final weekend, but then in like three months, the all of a sudden there'll be some other carnival thing, you know, and, uh, that's my that's my other piece of life advice for everybody here, you know, save money on your taxes. But if you get a chance, please come to Brazil Carnival once in your life. That's it. All right, I love it.
Blake Oliver: [00:34:44] It's on my list now.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:34:47] I'm gonna do it. Really? Yeah. You really should close down here in New Orleans.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:34:53] You come down here, Blake. I'll take you to Carnival. And then we'll also do the offshore setup for you all in one swoop.
Blake Oliver: [00:35:01] Oh, perfect. I get, I get, I get.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:35:04] That's great. Offshore. I think you should carnival a trip.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:35:06] It's great.
Blake Oliver: [00:35:07] You know, you might want to connect with like, a a trip organizer, like a travel agent to, like, you know, set all that up for people, right? You could you could have a whole, uh, group of people come down. No. Right. And first they work.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:35:21] On getting this all set up by an.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:35:23] Offshore setup, by an offshore setup, and get a free carnival trip out of it.
Blake Oliver: [00:35:27] Perfect. We've just we just come up with your next great marketing activity.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:35:32] I just I just.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:35:33] Came up with my next my next offer.
Blake Oliver: [00:35:35] That's awesome. Uh, all right, let's go back to your team. The remote team working everywhere in the world. You know, you got 40 people. Uh, this is kind of mind blowing, I think for a lot of traditional firms, and they can't imagine. How could I have company culture? How could I get anything done with people working from home, much less working from, like, different countries? So, like, how do you deal with that?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:35:56] Yeah. Now, you know, Blake, that's a great question because it's it didn't happen without its sort of downfalls and mistakes. I think, you know, one was really just hiring the right people. Right? People that that can work remote, that can work from home. And. You know, what it really came down to was implementing processes. You know, obviously the CRM and sort of the technology, but really implementing, you know, things in our culture like, you know, having weekly team meetings, right? And having, you know, people having bi weekly one on ones. So I have a one on one with about half my managers. My business partner does the other half. Then those people have one on ones with, you know, people underneath them. And when I say one on one, you know, I mean just check ins, right? What's going good? What's going wrong, you know, bad. What can I help you with? You know, like, hey, what do you want to learn? You know, goal setting, um, etc.. And. You know then on the on the team calls, you know, having a little bit of an icebreaker thing. You know, at the end of the call, we do gratitude. We give thanks to people that maybe helped us or or done something, you know, over the, the, the past week or two. Um, you know, we do actually have team building in person team building events, right? You know, now we do it sort of a little more regionally because everyone's sort of spread around the world. So we have the South American team building event. We have the team build event in Europe. Um, you know, the Asia guys get together and tell me about that.
Blake Oliver: [00:37:27] Like, how does that work?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:37:28] They get.
Blake Oliver: [00:37:29] Together regionally.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:37:30] Yeah, yeah. So me and my business partner, a couple of key people on the team, like the executives, and then, you know, the people who live in, you know, for example, uh, we did Montenegro, uh, which is in Europe. Right. And we had yeah, we have a team in a couple people in Serbia. You know, we have a person, a couple of the people from India came, um, you know, a couple, couple of the other people in, in Europe. And we descended on Montenegro, we rented a villa. We did some, you know, some some working, you know, co-working, if you will. And then we did some, uh, you know, we rented a boat and went out and did a boat day. We had some dinner stuff and we all sat. It was kind of an off site, right? It was a time where, hey, we're together. You know what? How can we, you know, make this company better, right? You know what? What do we need to improve upon? How did tax season go again? What went well during taxes? What didn't go so well. You know, what are we doing technology wise. What do we need for our our CRM our customer relationship management system. You know, what services should we offer people like really. You know really listening to like the people on the ground, meaning the accountants, um, about what, you know, can go better and what we could improve. And so every team building I do, it's about half of that, like sort of real like off site feedback, roundtable discussion, half sort of like, you know, fun.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:38:53] Yeah, like a boat day wine tasting, you know, eating together, hanging out. And then also, yeah, like a little bit of sort of just co-working stuff and, um, and they're great. We play this really interesting game. Uh, it's pretty, it's, you know, what it's called? Vulnerability is sexy. Uh, it is sort of like this team building a game that I got from an entrepreneur group I'm in. And, you know, people get vulnerable. Um, you know, it's almost sometimes like a group therapy session. You know, people really go deep. And so, you know, you take those little time that you have and you really try to, you know, create a real bond. And, um, it's real great for our team. I mean, you know, our team is solid and I know that's solid because, um, you know, our turnover is low and, you know, people are collaborative and, and whatnot, but really. It all starts with the hiring. It all starts with making sure you're hiring the people that are collaborative, that you know are team players, that, um, you know, that don't get distracted, uh, by working from home or whatnot. Um, and making sure that, you know, people, of course, are doing their work, etc. and then, you know, building upon that and creating that culture of, uh, yeah, of collaboration and, and helping each other out.
Blake Oliver: [00:40:11] You mentioned that you use workflow tools, software critical for any remote team to collaborate. For sure. What, uh, what are the favorite apps in your stack?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:40:25] Uh, we use something called Zoho, which is sort of our CRM. You know, it candidly, it's sort of like a a poor man's version of Salesforce. Right? And it has like, you know, a good chat feature. It's it's what we use for, uh, you know, managing the client, um, meaning like, you know, where they are in the process, all the client information, you know, again, like a full CRM, you know, process stuff, um, you know, it interacts with, uh, pandadoc, which we use for e-signatures. So, like sending engagement letters, um, you know, box.com, which is what we use for, like, the document upload, um, you know, document storage and. Yeah, so, so sort of Zoho integrates that together. But, you know, that's a very customized I mean, it's a CRM that we've customized tremendously. Uh, I mean, you know, we hired a full time developer. We have another guy that's sort of a fractional CTO. They're both amazing. And that's also been really a game changer as far as just building our firm and making sure that especially, you know, given our clients are all online, everything's paperless, all our accountants are everywhere that, uh, you know, it just ties everything together. Yeah.
Blake Oliver: [00:41:38] So like to me, it looks almost like an ERP system. It has the CRM, but it's also got like email documents. Yeah, it's got a.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:41:47] Module for everything. Very.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:41:48] It has a module for everything. It's very complete actually.
Blake Oliver: [00:41:53] Yeah.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:41:54] Yeah. So they do a lot of work.
Blake Oliver: [00:41:55] How much of it are you using? Like are you using the whole like like it seems like you could do.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:42:00] Use a lot of it.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:42:02] You know, over the years we've had, you know, even like the air stuff the way people, uh, you know, request their vacations, you know, all the stats with, uh, our clients attrition, you know, revenue stuff again, like. Yeah, I mean, the click is what I would say. There's a messaging system. It it is a very robust system.
Blake Oliver: [00:42:21] And.
Blake Oliver: [00:42:21] It's pretty affordable too, I believe. I've never actually met a firm using it. How much does it cost you?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:42:29] I couldn't even tell you.
Blake Oliver: [00:42:31] Uh, that's that's how affordable it is.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:42:33] Yeah, that's how affordable it is. It listen.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:42:36] It was, uh, you know what it really was between, um, Zoho and Salesforce. You know, it was a decision we made a few years ago. So that's why I don't really remember. But if it wasn't for a podcast that we listen to that, you know, on Zoho, we probably would have gone with Salesforce. But I'm very happy with Zoho because, yeah, it's it's a lot more affordable.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:42:57] Uh, Salesforce is.
Blake Oliver: [00:42:58] So up market, it's very expensive.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:43:00] So up market is very expensive.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:43:01] Yeah, yeah.
Blake Oliver: [00:43:02] And Zoho I believe they're out of India right. So they.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:43:05] Are out of India.
Blake Oliver: [00:43:06] Are low.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:43:07] Are out of. Yeah. They are out of India. Yeah. Um yeah I mean listen they, they build out they've, you know, continue to build and grow and you know, we're happy with Zoho for sure.
Blake Oliver: [00:43:17] Um, okay. So I got to ask you now what is your what is a day in the life of Vincenzo, like, um, you know, give me give me your, like, how do you, how do you like to run your day? And let's let's assume it's not carnival.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:43:34] Yeah. Carnival.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:43:35] Carnival is a big. But, um, you know I. All right. It's. The mornings are very sacred to me. Right. That's. I really, um, try not to turn on my phone in the mornings. Or at least, uh, I put in an airplane mode. Right. And, um, I'll do some sort of, you know, exercise. I play beach tennis here, you know, meditate, yoga. Um, so really try to just. Yeah, not beach tennis. Beach tennis is the new thing. It's like it's tennis on the beach. Kind of like a badminton where, you know, you got to keep the ball up in the air, right? It's like a two. It's like a a double sort of sport. The tennis net is, is about as high as a volleyball net. You use real tennis balls and you use sort of like paddle ball, uh, like a paddle racket. So, um, you know, it's kind of like how pickleball is sort of the rave in the US. Yeah, beach tennis is like the rave in Brazil and other parts of Europe. Yeah. Beach. Love it. It's the rave here. Yeah, it's really cool.
Blake Oliver: [00:44:40] So then I think you said yoga. Some yoga.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:44:42] Yeah. So like yoga or beach tennis, like, you know, every day is a little bit, you know, it's different, uh, a different sort of sport. But the point is, you know, really trying to focus on, on that in the morning and then sort of like, you know, mid to late morning, I'll, uh, I'll start work. And, um, you know, a lot of my day consists of, you know, managing obviously tasks in the marketing and, and the operational side and, you know, people recruiting, etc.. Um, I do a lot of, uh, you know, client work with, uh, you know, these offshore structures. And, you know, my focus generally is on the, the structuring side. So like the offshore structures we talked about, you know, foreign trusts, um, you know, sort of this like heavy lifting stuff for, you know, high net worth individuals or a higher, higher value clients, if you will. Um, and then I'll also do, uh, you know, do some reviews, right? Because in our firm, uh, it's sort of like a two person approach, you know, we have somebody who prepares the return and then someone reviews it. And, you know, we have a team of managers and reviewers that do it. But I also, you know, continue to do some reviews. Um, and so I'll, I'll do that, um, you know, throughout the day and, you know, if it's tax season, you know, maybe work a little bit in the evening, etc., but that sort of, you know, it's like operating and managing people and doing like kind of CEO level stuff, but while still, um, you know, working with some clients on, on their individual situations.
Blake Oliver: [00:46:15] What advice do you have for accountants who are interested in getting into this expat international tax area? You just went to Argentina and you had a revelation that this was a yeah, a need that people had. Um. How would you how would other how should other people get into it?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:46:36] You know.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:46:40] I think first, actually maybe be an expat, you know, I mean, I know a lot of other, you know, other people in my industry. Not all of them live the lifestyle. I live being expat, you know, so I wouldn't say it's a requirement, but. I do think there's value in being an expat on a few different levels. I think actually this is for anybody. I think, you know, accountant, not accountant, whatever. I think it is an invaluable experience to live outside of your own country for, you know, let's call it two years because I feel two years as you really understand what it's like. Um, you know, for me personally. Being an expat changed my life. Um, you know, not only because obviously I found, you know, my calling in life, but also because one, you know, of course, you meet clients because there are a lot of expats to, you know, just the pure cost savings of living outside the United States, not just the tax savings that we discussed, but also, you know, the fact that, you know, when I was living in Argentina, my, you know, cash burn rate, like on my monthly expenses was maybe like $1,000, $1,200 a month, right? Again, it was all tax free. So I was not, you know, I was able to build my business because I was living in a very low cost of living place, you know, and I think anyone that's really trying to start out their practice, whether it's accounting or, you know, independent contractor or whatever their business is, start up, etc., um, you know, living outside the US, especially in these low cost countries, whether it's, you know, in Argentina or Colombia or Thailand or Philippines or Eastern Europe, wherever. Really, really, really helps you focus on putting their money back in the business and, you know, growing it and so on and so forth. So, um, so I would say that, you know, be if you're if be an expat, learn what it's like to be an expat, learn the needs of expats. And, you know, that's the way to sort of try and grow that that particular practice.
Blake Oliver: [00:48:42] It's great advice for any specialty you want to develop is live the live the experience of the client live.
Blake Oliver: [00:48:49] And then.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:48:50] The client.
Blake Oliver: [00:48:51] You will understand them. And I Vincenzo, I got to agree with you 100% about more people needing to live abroad. And I would say especially Americans. Yeah, I didn't live abroad, but I did do I did a very short trip. I did six weeks, uh, in Asia after college because I couldn't I didn't have, you know, I didn't have the time. I felt like I couldn't take a year off, although I totally could have and I should have. But anyway, I only did six weeks, right? And I had saved up the money to do it. Asia was pretty cheap, so I could, you know, book the flight and then travel around and bum around, right as a backpacker. And I didn't realize what like I was getting myself into at the time. And I'm kind of glad I didn't because I don't know if I would have done it. But I went alone and I had never been abroad. I mean, I'd been to like resorts in Mexico, right? That does not count. Yeah, right. Those are those are basically like Americanized cities. So it was it was completely mind blowing. It was like life changing, finally being outside of my own country and like experiencing it for myself. And I feel like America would be a people would be people would have people would just be more open. Yeah, they'd be more open if they had experienced it. Um, both in good ways and bad ways, like, you know, like. Right. I came home, I came home, and I appreciated, like, the system we have in America where it's like the rule of law and capitalism and, and entrepreneurship exists. And I was, you know, backpacking around countries where, like, you had to bribe the official who was clearly sitting on the street to do anything. Right. And I don't know, that just really opened up my mind, made me very appreciative for what I have.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:50:36] I think that's a great point. You're right. It brings out so much appreciation. You know, what we have in the US and and and and you know, what other countries don't have. And you know, whether it's rule of law or, or just, um, you know, candidly, basic, you know, running water and whatnot. I mean, I've like, you know, part of what I love doing is actually traveling and volunteering and I've, you know, been to refugee camps and Iraq and Bangladesh and other places. And, you know, you talk about just like the slice of humble pie or whatever. And I don't know, for me, that's not why I go, obviously, you know, but I think that, you know, just traveling and, you know, especially through the developing world, you know, you really get an appreciation for what we have. And I do think that that could actually. Yeah, I mean, it's very impactful, you know, and I think it's super important to sort of really see that other side of the world. Um, because I think it's it's motivating and it's inspiring for people.
Blake Oliver: [00:51:38] I think that's a great place to leave it. I've been speaking with Vincenzo Villamena, the founder and owner and runner of Online Tax Man. Uh, what's the website?
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:51:51] So, uh, we have a couple, but online tax, Mint.com. And we also have one, um, global Expat Advisors. Com um, which, which sort of focuses on like these, these structures um, that we discussed and, you know, offshore trusts and offshore structures etc.. So global expat advisors.com and online tax com.
Blake Oliver: [00:52:15] Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and your experience and your time. I found it personally extremely valuable and I'm sure our listeners will too.
Vincenzo Villamena: [00:52:24] Thank you Blake. It's been it's been awesome.
Blake Oliver: [00:52:28] Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode and that you learned something new. And if you did, wouldn't it be nice to get some CPE credit for it? Well, I've got great news. My new app, earmark CPE, offers free Naspa approved CPE credits for listening to podcasts, including this one. Visit earmark Cpcomm to download the app, take a short quiz, and get your CPE certificate. That's earmark Cpcomm.
